Turk felt the sting of race starting at a young age, and with humor as her shield, it set her on a path to building inclusive workspaces for those who need it most.
Turk felt the sting of race starting at a young age, and with humor as her shield, it set her on a path to building inclusive workspaces for those who need it most.
You know, if I see a confederate flag on someone's hat, something's gonna happen. I don't know if I'm gonna think about it first, or if my body's gonna do it first. So to tell someone to get over it, it's not something that's in your head, it's in your body. It's like, are you crazy. And there's certain rage that we allow, and we know...we know who's rage we will allow. You know, I'll hear your pain. I'm good, but you gotta hear other people's pain too.
DB Crema:This is United States of Race. Personal stories of how our earliest memories determine a lifetime of relationships. Each episode features one guest sharing their experiences with race. Keeping these episodes anonymous, lets our guests share the real uninhibited stories of their life. And it gives us the chance to listen without prejudice. I'm your host, DB Crema. Today, we're joined by Turk, who felt this thing of race starting at a young age. And with humor as her shield, it's set her on a path to building inclusive workspaces for those who need it most. When did you start dealing with race?
Turk:I think my first memory is being on a school bus, I'd say probably around the ages of seven or eight. And this little boy sat next to me. And he was...you know, we're talking like kids, we're just talking. And I just moved there, because we move back from an Arab Emirate. You know, he was talking, and then he got a little sad, because he said he couldn't be my friend. Because his dad said that he can't be friends with black people. And I remember flipping my hand over in showing him that my palm was white. And so he smiled. And to him, that was enough. You know. Of course, that was the beginning of my exposure to race when I moved back from Manama, Bahrain, to the States, up until then I was, you know, living in a pretty multicultural atmosphere.
DB Crema:Interesting, I think about typical U.S.perspective, is that the Middle East, the Emirates, are, you know, more homogenous.
Turk:Right, right. Well, Yeah. You know, military brat, of course. So, being in the military definitely gives you a different aspect. But I'm sure most people if they go to Manama, Bahrain will feel like it's just only Arabs. You know, I think I went to like a Department of Defense school. So you had people - contractors that were working there. So I may have been the only black American but I wasn't the only like black or brown person. So you would have someone from India, you had people from Japan. There were different shades that I was used to. So I just thought, you know, God just made people in in different shades.
DB Crema:Did you ever feel like there was any reaction to you or to other shades?
Turk:Um, you know, it's hard to say because then if you think of it as an adult, we're they...was there a certain reaction to me because I was black or because I was an American. The Arabs at the souk thought it was adorable that I could speak, you know, Arabic and things like that. This little American kid. So I don't know if it's because I was a black American kid or I was an American kid. So I think that has a lot to do with how I saw, you know, how I saw race. So maybe people's first interaction with me wasn't based on my race, but based on my citizenship. But the United States was definitely a more black, white. You know, there wasn't that much gray area. So yeah.
DB Crema:So then you came back to the US, which has its own special brand of drawing distinctive lines along color and race.
Turk:We came back we moved to Key West Florida. And this had to be like in 82. It wasn't much there back then. My mother was worried about me because I was a shy kid. But there were just a few instances that, you know, I quickly learned that this is a different atmosphere than Manama, Bahrain, and this is probably one of her first memories when they had to sit me down and talk to me. She was, you know, talking to the teachers or teachers helpers, and like, I'm worried about my daughter, because you know, she's shy. We just moved here. And I guess the teacher told her, Hey, don't worry about your kids. She's okay, because I heard some little girl tell her that, you're black because God must have taken you out of the oven too late. And she goes, your daughter turned around without missing a beat and said, Well, he must have taken you out too early. You know, my dad was a very funny guy. So I think humor is definitely - I use humor to, you know, to cover up a lot. You know, I used to sneak and watch the Jeffersons and Benny Hill so maybe that was it. I don't know.
DB Crema:Picked up all the quick retorts.
Turk:yeah. But that's definitely a story my mom always tell. She always thought that was hilarious and she kind of felt better that I could take care of myself.
DB Crema:Mm hmm.
Turk:I'll tell you another story, but it's not funny. It's kind of sad. So when I went to - we moved to Key West, and then we left Key West, we moved to Northern Florida. And my first year there, I had got, like, hit in the lunchroom at the school. And I told my mom about it. And I didn't think, you know, anything was going to happen about it. And she actually called the police. You know, and, and then, a friend of mine that I had, in the second grade, was a witness for me. It was a little boy, he was, like, eight. And my mom said to me at that time, she was like, now this is nice that these people came to be your witness. But don't count on that. Most times, you're going to be the only person who's gonna be able to speak up for yourself. So I think as a kid, that's kind of like, Ah, so you're telling me, I shouldn't trust most people? Yeah, but yeah, you know, there are a lot of things that I know happen, but I block out, like children telling you get in the back of the line, because your mom's black. Now, who you think told them that? Seven or eight year olds? Come on. You know, that's a lot to do how you raised cuz I was like, I was eight years old. I thought I would be a little bit more hip to race earlier. But, yeah, man, there's a lot of stuff that happened in the great state of Florida. I still stick up for her. When stuff happens now, I think I detach. You know, I'm like, uh, you know, like, right now I'm like, kind of, like, when you're at a concert, and they call it all these groups, that should scream. Like, right now. It's like, white people make some noise it's their turn to scream. I want to hear you. I'm in the bathroom during this set, you know, what I'm saying? I'm outside smoking a cigarette. You know, I'm not really into this band that's coming up. This ain't me.
DB Crema:Why? Cuz you just like not into, like, let's use tribalism as a...
Turk:I mean, naw. Not even at Lilith Fair. People had their bands, you know, I'm saying, you know, even the tribe you could have, which, you know, what part of the tribe you want to see or hang out with. And that's probably a defense mechanism.
DB Crema:Do you ever feel like you , talking about a defense You know, mechanism, you ever feel like you have worked through the stuff you blocked out as a kid?
Turk:I don't know, I think. So if I take stuff from recent say, being in quarantine, you know. Lost my job earlier in the pandemic, so not not having to go out not having to go into quote, unquote, whitespaces - corporate offices. So as you're out of that, you don't have to deal with that all the time. You don't have to deal with whatever you have to deal with, when you deal with people who are different, no matter if it's race or whatnot. You know, so being in isolation of being quarantine with people that you love, and people that know you, when when I see stuff like this is very easy for me to be like, you know, F those people, because I'm not having to interact with them anymore. So it is a weird dichotomy to be in if this stuff happens, and then you have to go to work and deal with people, you know,
DB Crema:What's this stuff?
Turk:Well, like when racial violence happens. It's hard to go to work sometimes and deal with, you know, people who just may not understand where you are. So you can't be there. You have to be where you are that moment physically, which is at work, and everyone has to do this to some regard. So in some regard, I was so happy. I'm an introvert. So I hate to say this, but the pandemic, I'm like, I'm having the time of my life.
DB Crema:You've been preparing for this all of your life.
Turk:I can't stand people. This is awesome. Man. You know, you do have to deal with people. But I was so happy, I didn't have to deal with certain people, you know. You know, to explain how I'm feeling or just I don't know, sometimes you just don't want to be in that situation. You know? And some people have better work atmospheres and others. This is all depends on if you know, and people hate to hate this word. But is your workplace inclusive? Genuinely inclusive? Yeah, so it's been nice being quarantined, because I don't have to deal with being in places that where maybe I can't fully be myself or be angry or be upset. You know?
DB Crema:I mean, being insulated, having some level of insulation does help to protect you from the triggers that make you upset.
Turk:Right. Yeah, I don't know. I don't, I don't know what life's gonna be like when I have to go back outside, you know, I mean, what am I going to set up for myself? Like, what spaces do I want to be in? So I've been thinking about that a lot since the pandemic started with spaces where I'm going to spend the second half of my life in? You know, and I don't think it's the ones I was in before. And that's probably a lot of people. You know, whether it's about race, you know, gender identity, sexuality. The capitalist will does not work for most of us. So Just that whole space that's largely based on whiteness and patriarchy, it doesn't work for a lot of people. So what space do I want to be in? What do I want the second part of my life, what do I want that energy to be in? What do I want to worry about? You know?
DB Crema:And what does that, what does that look like to you? What are you thinking about? What are safe spaces and where you feel like you belong?
Turk:You know, as much as I just sat here and say that, you know, I can't stand people, which is true. I think I'm adaptable to a lot of spaces, you know, switching - code switching, of course, but I want to help people that need help. And that's people who are on the margins, people who are marginalized. Now, a lot of time, that's gonna be people that look like me. But it may be people who look like me who are also trans. You know, I think because of the work I do, like with recruitment, because I'm a recruiter, I know that most workspaces aren't inclusive. So it's a bottom up thought to me. So if I can get a person into a job to where they can, you know, feel good about themselves, go back home, be part of the community and just live their day to day life. You know, that's what I'm trying to do. But I'm trying to do that working with people who maybe feel like they don't belong or who haven't gotten a shot. So and that goes to a lot of stuff, ageism, the color of your skin. I mean, there's so much discrimination in hiring, that I think just making sure people who aren't represented or feel included are included, because then if you make a place good enough to work for, say, someone who's at the bottom, them it's gonna be a great place to work for a person at the top, because a person at the top is not going to have a bad work experience. And the person at the bottom is chillin.
DB Crema:Right, right. And then to your point, it also extends into other aspects of the life, If you're having a good environment at work, having a good experience at work, you're going home, feeling more secure, less frustrated, less marginalized. You know, through that one act of of creating, helping to create an inclusive hiring and inclusive workspaces. That's huge.
Turk:Yeah, I think for me, helping people get to where they need to be in their life, through employment. Most people have to work, most people don't want to, but if you're going to spend that time at work, you should be respected. You should not go home, feeling horrible. And a lot of people go home feeling horrible.
DB Crema:So tell me about, you know, inclusive workspaces. What does that look like? How do we, what do we need to get there?
Turk:Like, I'm trying to figure out when you set up a staff, how do you set up for a sustainable, inclusive and equitable culture? Do you start at the bottom tier? Do you start in the middle? Do you start, you know, on the top, like, the leaders that you choose? You know, what spot? Do you put them in? Do you put them in the middle? So they can serve as a representation, a diverse representation for the people that work under them? And then they can speak to people who are the upper level? And eventually, hopefully, hopefully, those people move up in a corporation. Or do you start from the top, down? You know, like, what's the most important spot in a company, to where people can get in, and feel like this is a space for them, and then prosper, where they move up or move on in their career. Great managers is huge. But you know, starting at the top always, always helps. It always helps to know that people are in the big offices don't all look the same, don't also have the same background, don't come from the same class and go to the same, you know, B school. That kind of thing. Yeah, so that's something I'm trying to think about. Where do you start when you start up a company? So when someone goes to interview, or someone's their first day, they're like, You know what? I think, you know, I like it here and I really think I could be myself here and everyone seems respectful. And, and that's the culture of respect. We may not all get along, but I see my manager don't take no slack when it comes to respect.
DB Crema:Right. You know, it's like going in interviewing in a space you say, I can see myself here.
Turk:Yes. Because right now, the only places I can think that I felt like I could bring all of myself were nonprofit places. So Human Services.
DB Crema:Hmm.
Turk:I'm really trying to think of a corporation that I work for. But in terms of dressing the way I want to dress, I mean, when I was working in the nonprofit world, we had to dress up because we had, you know, clients, we were trying to teach the importance of dressing for success. So I, you know, and I prefer to wear male clothing, so I could do that there. Um, I could wear ties, like wear bow ties. Um, you know, my gender expression, I've never really faltered with. But the next interview I had at a corporation, I wore a suit to my interview. So that is interesting how having one job where you can - where you know, what it feels like to bring your full self, it kind of, you kind of have that hyper vigilance when you go to the next job and when it's not, right, you know?
DB Crema:And it's not necessarily that everyone has to look exactly like me or there has to be someone else that looks like me, but that you can see your full self being able to be comfortable in that space.
Turk:Right. And that yeah, that's I guess that's different for a lot of people. That's probably why it's so hard to do this work. You know, you could do the diversity part, but the inclusion and equity and you know, equity, I think that's where people fall short. A lot of companies waste all this time trying to figure it out. And I've always noticed, I'm like, you know, you're more concerned with looking like you're inclusive, you know, you're going to spend more energy, trying to look like, hey, we cool over here. But you're not really. But that's, that's the way I feel about it. The default is to see all the white dudes. Even me when I look at companies, I'm interested in, I'm like naw, I ain't working here. But then when I go to a company, I'm like, Oh, okay. Okay. You know, you scroll you like, Okay, I see you, Judy Chan. Okay, girl. Let me see what this company is about. Okay. You know, and the woman, the only woman is not like, the VP of communications or HR. I want to see a VP of manufacturing.
DB Crema:Mm hmm.
Turk:Okay. Okay, Mary, I see you. Okay. That's what I like. And that's what makes me I'm like, and it starts there. Is this place inclusive? Do I see myself there? It starts with the candidate interaction experience. You know, like, know where your company is at? You know?
DB Crema:I mean, I bet with your experience, you can tell when it's just performative. Like when it's just a storyline about wanting to bring in more black people and people of color to change the face of the company.
Turk:Right. A quick review of your people in charge, I can see that's not true.
DB Crema:Yeah, and given the issues with race in this country, it feels really hard to make workplaces truly inclusive, where race is concerned.
Turk:Yeah. We all know this country, it has a race relations issue. It has a problem with race, it has a problem with, with where race stands, and its foundations. And what black people mean to this country. It wears you down, man, it wears you down. Like when people say, Oh, you know, certain people, they always talking about what happened and they just, they just make racism sound so bad, you know, or they just, they complain too much about it or what not. I'm like, I don't think you get like, half of what certain people experience, you know.
DB Crema:Yeah. And to your point, there's often this message of just get over it. You don't just erase that.
Turk:No, no, I mean, that's how I mean. It's how the way things make you feel and your interactions with them, is how you learn. So to tell someone to get over it, it just seems kind of it's not, it's not something that's in your head, it's in your body. You know, you can't you can't tell people to get over stuff that, something that happens to them that is about their actual being. You know. And I think it's very rude to do that. I think maybe having to deal with the past is one of the reasons why, you know, this country can't give credence to the pain of black Americans, or Native Americans, you know?
DB Crema:Mm hmm. It's just, yeah, yeah. There's only so much trauma, a body and a person can take.
Turk:Right. And yeah, I just think I'm at the place where, yeah, I'm just not into this band right now. I think we're gonna go outside in the parking lot. Smoke a doobie. But we'll be back, man. You know, we'll be back for the funk band that comes on in two hours.
DB Crema:Like, America needs an intermission.
Turk:Yes. And that's just the way I have to look at is like, you know, it's like we - it's how much can the people scream that this is occurring in our country? And then it hits like a, like a wave and people like, oh, man, I didn't pack a bathing suit. I didn't know, didn't nobody tell me was having no waves coming up in here. Oh, man. I'm wearing corduroy, this is horrible. I can't feel sorry for those people. I'm just like, child, you knew it was a beach day. And I was like, I just and I just, if I think about how those people are thinking, then it upsets me. You know, the people that say this is not my country. I want to be like, ma'am, Are you new here? Did you just get off the Greyhound? This is not my country. Girl, you must have been quarantining for the past 25 years then. Because it's exactly who she is. Yep, no makeup. None. No filters. Here she is. The last season of America, no filter. Ain't she a mess, though? She's such a mess. And she wants somebody to help her. She wants somebody to do an intervention with her. She wants somebody to help her. But ain't nobody trying to directly help her. Po' Ame. You in danger girl. Po' Ame.
DB Crema:Thanks for listening to United States of Race. This podcast was produced by me, Your host, DB Crema, And our artwork is designed by Aly Creative. If you love great storytelling, go ahead and subscribe to United States of Race on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And show us some love by rating and writing a review on Apple Podcasts or Podchaser. You see Podchaser.com is the world's most comprehensive podcast database. So rating and writing a review there helps us get the message out and helps other listeners discover this amazing show. And you can also share this podcast with your friends, and anyone who believes in the power of building connection through sharing personal stories. You can also follow us on Instagram at unitedstatesofrace. And as always, if you, Yes, you have a compelling story to share and would like to be featured on an upcoming episode, send us a message at unitedstatesofrace@gmail.com. Until next time.