United States of Race
United States of Race
Episode 10: Give Land Back to Get Our Values Back
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Dylan experienced a childhood that most people don’t even know still exists and it ended up shifting his entire worldview for the rest of his life.
Dylan references two amazing resources for Land Acknowledgment:
I think we could easily say that white people as a whole do not understand what people of color go through, do not understand that experience of what it is to be a person of color in the country. And what does that do to people when we don't know? It prevents a sense of community across the country. And really the work is on white people. You know, white people need to learn the history
DB Crema:This is United States of Race, personal stories of how our earliest memories determine a lifetime of relationships. Each episode features one guest sharing their experiences with race. Listen, without prejudice to their real, uninhibited stories, because, by sharing when we first learned we are all different, we find the common thread that shows us how much we are all the same. I'm your host, DB Crema. Dylan grew up somewhere many people don't even know still exists, and it ended up shifting his entire worldview for the rest of his life. Check out the show notes for links to the websites mentioned in today's show. So when did you first become aware of race?
Dylan:I first became aware of race - it had to have been when I moved to the reservation, when I was seven years old. And my parents were kind of products of the 60s. They had lived in Alaska and the first six months of my life was in a tent, in Fairbanks, Alaska over the winter. And it was the time of the Vietnam War, you know, early 70s. And I think they wanted to just get away from society or get as far away as possible. And then they traveled across country and eventually settled in Salt Lake City, Nevada. And that's where my dad worked for the post office. And then he got hired as postmaster on a reservation. And so I remember when they told us we were moving, they said I'd have a new class, and it would be all Native Americans. And I didn't know what to expect. And in my head, I didn't know what a Native American looked like. But of course, I remember first grade in Salt Lake, Thanksgiving, you know, dressing up, like Native Americans and pilgrims. And I remember a picture of me with construction paper and markers. And I was dressed up like a Native American, but I didn't know what a real Native American looked like. In my head, in my little seven year old head I imagined black kids in a classroom. You know, that's, that's going to be my new home. And I remember vividly driving to the reservation, I remember arriving there seeing a young Native American kid my age riding his bike, looking at us. And, and yeah, that was definitely the first time. I would say, you know, who I am today was absolutely, hugely impacted by that upbringing. You know, in growing up there, because I lived there for 10 years. Very formidable age, seven to 17. My parents were there for over 23 years. It's just such a part of me. And sometimes I feel like I'm the product of an experiment. Because I'm white. I mean, I'm kind of the whitest guy out there. And yet, I have this background like and it really gave me a different point of view on the world.
DB Crema:What did it feel like when you were growing up? Right, you're in minority in a small ecology, and then in the grander scheme of the country, you still hold these certain privileges that come with being the majority. And in some respects, your father being the postmaster, you're almost part of the community in a permanent way, but you're still elevated in a kind of removed sense from being in the community. How was that? Like, just interactions?
Dylan:Yeah, I mean, it was kind of thinking growing up, okay, I'm gonna leave this place like, this isn't my place. And early on, I felt like a minority and certainly, I heard lots of stuff. I was called a, you know, dirty white boy, white trash.
DB Crema:All of the kids that you're in school with on the reservation, they had seen white people, but you had never seen a Native American.
Dylan:Yeah. And I remember, early on too, probably second grade, we were in line in the school and a kid came up to me and said, you stole our land. And he was really mad about it. And I didn't know how to react. I didn't know what to think or how to react.
DB Crema:Did you know what he was talking about?
Dylan:No, not really. I mean it. It became clear over time. And then there was also, just the sort of the passive kind of feeling where, somebody just doesn't like you. Even from teachers occasionally, you know. I never really knew what it was. And now that I'm older, I realize it's probably because I was white, you know. There were white people that lived on the reservation, but they always moved on. You know, they were always either doctors or they were from a nearby town that was sort of a mining town, ranching. So there were white people that came, but they always went to my parents just stayed there. And as I was growing up, I always kind of felt out of place like I was different. I don't know if you ever heard of this famous children's author, Leo Leoni, I think, but he wrote a book about a fish. And, you know, this one red fish in a school of black fish just always felt different. But in the story, the fish get threatened by this big fish, and the big fish is going to eat all the little fish. But what they do is they get into a shape of a bigger fish, and Frederick is the eye. So it's this big black fish made up of these little tiny fish. So I always really identified with that story. And I think over time, there was definitely an acceptance and definite kinship with them. And and early on, I got in trouble with a group of kids. And that was, I think, important to kind of form a bond with my peers. And I remember what it was, was like six or seven of us kids kind of got together in the back of the classroom, and they had a pencil, like a pencil, and they were putting the lead from the pencil on the back of a brush. And then they would take it and they would put it on our, you know, on our face, like it was war psint. Kind of these marks. We all did that and we got in trouble and got taken to the principal's office. And I remember, he kind of scolded us and took us all to the restroom so we could wash it off. And then I remember him just yelling and screaming like, never do this again. Or that he would start giving swats you know. So just like, the fear, and it was a scary time, but at the same time it kind of bonded me with with my peers.
DB Crema:Yeah.
Dylan:In one sense on the living there is it's such a sense of community, such a sense of love, and in a way, one big family. And there were regular events like powwows, and rodeos were really big there. And just these sort of community ceremonial celebrations that we got to take part in. It was always, they were always very welcoming. And when I was in seventh grade, I was in band, I played the trumpet in band, and I was asked to play Taps, at funerals for soldiers who had passed on. And I did that probably three or four times. At that age, I was maybe not that excited about doing it, but in hindsight, I was like, Wow, that's really cool that I did that. And so I had gone to several funerals for Native American elders who had been soldiers, and they wanted Taps played at the funeral. And I played it.
DB Crema:What an honor.
Dylan:Yeah, I mean, experiences like that, that are that are priceless. And I, you know, when I look back at my time, growing up there, I have some of the best memories. And now being older, in my, you know, mid 40s, the more years go by, the more I feel this kind of urgent, urgency to hang on to, it to sort of maintain it to be a part of it.
DB Crema:The urgent sense of holding on to what exactly?
Dylan:I guess that experience, you know. The sense of urgency now is that, you know, I didn't know, the history of Native Americans, you know, the history of this country. I didn't know that growing up. And it wasn't till I left, and I went to college, and I started reading books and educating myself that I became aware of that part of our history. And I think the urgency is, is to do something to help, you know. Because you learn the history, and it's a policy of genocide by the US government. And it's ongoing. And that's what the urgency is. To do something to make a difference. And, I think there's a sense of- and I'm not speaking for Native Americans, but I think they might feel a sense of invisibility in society. Society doesn't know. I mean, we've been fed, I guess, I don't want to say lies, but we've just been, we haven't been told the truth. And it's this sort of the American story, the American myth, we've been fed these myths. And oftentimes, when I would, people would ask where I was from. And I was always not quite sure what to say. Like, because if I say I'm from an Indian reservation, or a Native American reservation, first question is, are you a Native American? I would say no. It'd be like, why did you live there? And, you know, when you meet people, they're always trying to sort of size you up and to place you. And it always comes inevitably. And people sometimes say that I have a different accent and they're always trying to say, Where are you from? And whenever they guess they always either guess Canadian or Irish. And I think because I spent 10 years there, you know I can, there is a different way of talking on the reservation. When you go back there, all of a sudden, I'm back and talking with that accent in a really strong way. So the right answer is the accent is Shoshone and Paiute, the two tribes there. So that's why I was getting back to like this feeling of maybe invisibility, the idea that society doesn't really know. And the kind of, the really horrifying thought is that maybe society doesn't care. And just feeling invisible. I think that's a part of that experience.
DB Crema:I mean, to your point, though, I've come across the fact that there are a lot of people in the US who don't even realize that there are reservations in this country and that there is a large, not large enough, but large Native American population.
Dylan:Yeah. Not so much lately. But when I was in college, people would ask me where I was from? And I would tell them. Oftentimes, the first question was, do they still live in teepees? And just...
DB Crema:Really?
Dylan:Yeah, and that just shows how little is known about them. When really, it's our country's history. It's like, you could look at our, the state of our country today and all of the problems, I believe you could trace them back to the beginnings of the country, and really, the policies of indigenous land theft and genocide. It's almost like, if a person commits a murder, and they never come to terms with it, they're never brought to justice, they just kind of bury it in their head and years go by and eventually it's going to surface, right? Psychologically, that is going to come out. And I think that might be what's happening to America on a large scale now with this racial reckoning. The intense divide in the country. I think it's um, a culture of hate in America that's been around since the beginning. And it's in the Declaration of Independence, right? Merciless Indian savages is written in our Declaration of Independence.
DB Crema:I didn't know that.
Dylan:You know, and yet, you can't look at the country without seeing native words everywhere, you know. Every town, every river and mountain range, you know. And if you learn about the genocide, it really is incredible that, yeah, they're still here. There's an element to kind of, because of the scale of the loss, you know, I've heard various numbers, but, you know, what's the scale of the genocide? 100 million or so, over the course of a few 100 years. But, it's almost a sense of mourning, like a constant state of mourning for those who we've lost. And I currently teach at a community college, I teach cinema. And I always like to bring it up to my students also. And, for the most part, when I ask them, what have you learned about it?, it's not much at all. I think the American education system really needs an overhaul. But I will say that among younger college students, there's a really intense curiosity. And I would say they want to know. And for me, growing up on the reservation was one thing, but then leaving and educating myself and becoming aware of the true history was also, it was mind blowing. Like when I was in Salt Lake as a first grader, I remember watching movies in school about Christopher Columbus and kind of the myth of America. And then to contrast that to living on the reservation. And then we watched movies of Chief Joseph, one of the battles and, you know, they would show the aftermath. And whenever they showed all the dead, white soldiers, everybody cheered in the classroom. So it was really these two kind of polar opposites. One is a myth that sort of fed to American kids growing up. And the other one is, is really something that people don't know about.
DB Crema:Something I find fascinating is that, you know, you were talking about your parents kind of being the types that wanted to get away from society. But yet, then your dad took a job with the government. And you went to a place that has simultaneously a ton of government oversight, while a severe lack of government services, often. It's just kind of the antithesis of getting away from society.
Dylan:Right. It's a real paradox. I know. Yeah. And maybe that's why I sort of wrestle with stuff on a day to day basis. And you know, I think Native Americans on the reservation feel like yeah, the government might just come in and take it all. They have in the history. I mean, throughout much of the 20th century, there was the government pushing this termination policies. So get rid of reservations and force Native Americans to assimilate into society. Because there's a movement called the land back movement.
DB Crema:Can you tell me about the land back movement?
Dylan:Yeah, it's part of a contemporary indigenous resistance school of thought where the government should return lands to Native Americans. We should. America should. And I think that's a way that America could heal itself, I think is to revisit the original treaties, and what would happen, why can't we start returning this? If you want to really heal the country, I think that's a way to go. Because the land was stolen. You know, in America, the government entered into treaties with native nations. And if we believe in the Constitution, the supremacy clause says essentially, treaty law is the supreme law of the land. Governments don't make treaties...they only make treaties with sovereign nations. So Native Americans and reservations, they are sovereign nations. There's over 500 plus sovereign Native American nations. And yet, they've been broken, over and over. And, for example, the big one, the 1868 Fort Laramie treaty: that is a size of land that covers much of Wyoming, Montana, and North Dakota, South Dakota, the whole Black Hills. Like, it's rightfully theirs. The Supreme Court in, I think, 1980 or 1981, they acknowledged. There's even a quote how there's no greater example of just downright theft, then this. And they tried, they wanted to pay the Lakota nation, like a billion dollars for it. But Native Americans said, No, we want the land. So I think something like the land back movement, if we start returning lands to Native Americans that could start putting us on the right track.
DB Crema:But what would that look like? You know, a land restitution requires that that land has to be taken now from somebody else who has title to it. And so what would that look like? And how do you respond to people who, who say, you know, right or wrong, what has happened in the past is not necessarily my responsibility to fix. I can't be accountable for every single one of my ancestors from the past 400 years and their actions.
Dylan:Yeah, but it's still something that the United States government agreed to do. Hold up to your end of the bargain. Because otherwise, America is not what it wants to be America is a great idea. We like to hold ourselves out there as being the sort of the highest, you know, in terms of morality in the world. But if we're not abiding by our own treaties, our own agreements, then we certainly can't make that claim. So what would it look like? That's what I think America should set out to do. I mean, I think it's, it would be a matter of forming Commission's and revisiting some of these original agreements, and kind of just going through in a very methodical way. You know, because they're all...there's 500 plus Native American tribes in the country that are all sovereign nations. They govern themselves just fine. And they will continue to govern themselves. They would just have more land.
DB Crema:I mean, imagine that, in and of itself could be a unifying process. If you brought everyone together to go through the process of how to enact it, how to roll it out what it would look like, what happens to those who are leaving the land, what that means for everyone. It can be its own kind of reconciliation process.
Dylan:Absolutely. Yeah. When you look at the history that the Dawes Act in the late 1800s. The general Allotment Act, where they took these large swaths of land that were Native Americans by treaty law. Pretty much just divided them up, gave them to certain families, people, and then whatever is the surplus, they just sold to white settlers. Clearly, they didn't have jurisdiction. Clearly. So I think we just, if we pride ourselves on our laws and our Constitution, we need to use those to go back and, and Okay, what would it look like if we did honor this agreement? Somebody posted this article where if you wanted to give your house to the local tribe, there's like some people that just do that when they pass on, if they don't have kids or so, they just give it to the local Native American tribe. There's a really cool map also that you can text your location and it will tell you what Native American land you're living on. Oh, wow. And that's a kind of a cool thing. And, the Oscars last year. Taika Waititi, the Director.
DB Crema:The Kiwi actor, from New Zealand.
Dylan:He gave a land acknowledgement when he spoke at the Oscars. And I think that's something that people could start doing is just to acknowledge the land that you're on. And it's a map that shows all the native nations in the country. You know, you can point to any area and sometimes there are multiple nations if they kind of overlap. But you could text in your location and it'll tell you what land you're on. And so I think just Americans having an acknowledgment with 500 native tribes around the country, it's quite a new map. It's not the map that we grew up learning, but I think if people did grow up with this acknowledgement, then that would, it would cause a world, it would cause a shift in our worldview, I think.
DB Crema:Thanks for listening to United States of Race. This podcast was produced by me, DB Crema. Our artwork is designed by Aly Creative, and our recordings are done via SquadCast FM. With everything being remote these days, SquadCast delivers studio quality remote recording for all your podcast needs. If you love great storytelling, you can follow United States of Race on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and show us some love by rating and writing a review on Apple Podcasts or Podchaser. You can also share this podcast with your friends and anyone who believes in the power of building connection through sharing personal stories. And you can follow us on Instagram at all one word unitedstatesofrace. And as always, if you, Yes, you have a compelling story to share and would like to be featured in an upcoming episode, send us a message at unitedstatesofrace@gmail.com. Until next time,