Holly has spent most of her life trying to figure out where she fits and, after feeling like she wasn’t quite accepted anywhere, she’s learned that making her own community is what matters most in finding belonging.
Holly has spent most of her life trying to figure out where she fits and, after feeling like she wasn’t quite accepted anywhere, she’s learned that making her own community is what matters most in finding belonging.
Moving on and getting older, it wasn't so much, your exotic looking it was like, you know, what are you? And then, depending on who was asking it, it either felt accusatory, or it felt curious, or it felt intrigued. So it would be the same question, but it really depended on who was asking me.
DB Crema:This is United States of Race, personal stories of how our earliest memories determine a lifetime of relationships. I'm your host DB Crema. And welcome to Episode 15. 15! Thank you so much for listening. In just a few short months, we've grown this show with support from you. And it's our spring break here at United States of Race from May 1 to May 15th. We'll be back at it with a very special guest on Monday, May 17th. So, mark your calendars and don't forget to download Episode 16. There'll be a special giveaway to go with the show. And you can also follow us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts to automatically get a reminder when the new episode is ready. And in the meantime, be sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter for regular postings with extra content from previous episodes. Thanks for listening. Today, we're joined by Holly who often feels like she's not fully accepted for who she is. So she's learned that making her own community is what matters most in finding belonging. When did you become aware of race?
Holly:You know, I think I first became race aware just in my own house. And what I mean by that is being aware that I looked very different than the rest of my family members. I was much darker complected, my eyes were very dark. I was just more dark. And people would make comments whether they were family friends, or neighbors or family. And the comments would be something like that my older sister looked a lot like my mom. And my brother looked a lot like my dad. And I had no idea who I looked like, you know. So I just, I didn't really necessarily know where I fit as far as just appearance wise. And to a point where at one point I asked my mom and I was probably six or seven, maybe. And I asked her if I was adopted. And my mom responded with, Oh, honey, don't you know, I found you under a rock, like hahaha, right. So, you know, we're kind of laughing about it, and then I'm full on looking at her like no, but for reals. Like, am I adopted? You know? And then she just reassured me like, Oh, no, honey, no, you're definitely mine. I know your mine. You know. I don't know if that's being aware of race. It was just being aware that I looked so different, I felt. And I remember having these thoughts in my own head like I'd go through family members. Do I look like my aunt? Do I look like my cousin? Like I thought of all these family members that were darker complected and trying to find some reassurance that way that I fit. Um, it didn't help that I was the middle child, you know, that just kind of threw me for a loop as a kid. You know?
DB Crema:Why? Why was it an issue? Like do you remember as a kid why like the fact that you were darker or looked slightly different than everyone else was playing on your mind?
Holly:Right? I don't remember a specific conversation like my parents sitting us down or sitting me down and telling me, you know, this is what our family is about. This is, you know, our story or these might be issues or challenges you might face and whatnot, right? Like, I didn't have a sit down conversation. If I did, I don't remember it. It's probably just because like, all of my earliest memories are with my family. So I was in a very multiracial, all-shades-everything from when I was... like, I don't remember my life any other way. So I think it was more just trying to find my place. And that being something that was very obvious to me. And it probably wouldn't have even, maybe it wouldn't have you been a thing, if I didn't internalize hearing people constantly telling my sister and my brother how much they looked like our parents. And I didn't hear that myself.
DB Crema:Do you remember then kind of entering into the world? Separate from your family, do you remember what feedback you were getting then? How you looked and your race or your color? All those things?
Holly:Uh huh. Yeah. Mostly in elementary school, some comments. Um, I remember a classmate saying, Oh, you're so lucky your tan all year round. You know? Like, I'm only tan after spring break, but your tan all year round. You're so lucky. And I remember kids comparing our complexions. Oh, and I was called exotic, of course, I've been called that. At a young age being told I was exotic looking.
DB Crema:And what does that mean?
Holly:I have no idea. It meant something to that person. Like, I looked different, I guess. You know, I know what it meant. I knew what it meant.
DB Crema:What did it mean?
Holly:To me, it meant, you know, you're different. You know, most of the kids we went to school with at that age were white. You know, I always think about how lucky I feel like I was to at least be in a class with a couple other kids who were also biracial. You know, I wasn't by myself going through that type of experience trying to navigate that. And always, always, always, always, it was the white kids that would be like, you're not black, like, what? No, like, well, what percentage? I mean, like, that was something that always struck me personally, was how white kids had a harder time digesting the information that I shared as far as my racial mixture. And it was always like, Oh, I thought you were Italian. I thought you were Greek. I'm like, I'm glad this is something you're thinking about. Like, I'm glad this is something that you are preoccupied enough with where you have gone through different ethnicities to try to put me in a box. Yeah, like, maybe you should have been spending more time studying algebra and trying to figure out my genealogy.
DB Crema:That's exactly what I was about to say. Do you think it had to do with like, some sort of like deep seated...not fear, but I mean, look, you were told you're exotic and beautiful. So people admired you. And so they, you know, to find out then that, that they're attracted to socially, romantically, whatever, like, there's an attraction to something that they don't feel comfortable with?
Holly:I'm nodding my head very vigorously right now. I yeah, I feel like it was something that was hard for them to wrap their heads around. You know, they had maybe already in their mind when they, you know, when responses were things like I thought you were Greek or I thought you were Spanish. I thought you were Italian. Like, you know, these Southern European features they seem to think I had, right. Um, I mean, I think it was a number of things. I think one it was probably trying to put me in a box. And when my answer did not put me in the box that they thought I should fit into. I think they were genuinely confused. But then I think there was a, Yeah, I think there was something that didn't sit right with them. It was kind of like a she's not like one of us.
DB Crema:What box do you check?
Holly:Other, baby! I'm an Other. Though, sometimes I check white, sometimes I check black, just because I was both. And I didn't feel like checking the little other box that day, you know.
DB Crema:For myself, those boxes come up all the time. And to this very day, I have an anxious response to the moment when I know oh, I have to... I'm gonna have to answer this. I'm gonna have to find somewhere... I'm gonna have to find somewhere where I fit.
Holly:Yep. Yep. Moving on, and getting older. It wasn't so much your exotic looking. It was like, you know, what are you? You know, I'd answer and and say, Oh, well, I'm, you know, I think I just said black, white, and Native American. And then, you know, and then I would get all kinds of responses. Oh, I can see the, you know, oh, you know, well, what...? Then that would follow up questions like, well, what, what tribe or you know, what Native American like, what? Oh, Cherokee? Oh, I can I can definitely see the Native American you. Oh, I can definitely see... you know, like these, you know, picking apart. Picking apart.
DB Crema:Like everyone is a professional ethnographer.
Holly:Um, seriously. One thing I do remember is my mom: "you are who you are." That it didn't matter. It shouldn't matter. That we're humans. We're all worthy of the same things. And don't ever let anybody make you feel like you're less than, you know. You're just exactly who you're supposed to be. But my dad did remind me of a story. I had come home from school one day, and one of my teachers had asked me what I was, what my race was, because my dad asked me Well, how did you respond like, well, what did you tell them? And I responded, I'm a human being, is what I told this teacher, and I remember my dad just telling me how proud he was of me for that being my answer to this adult who was asking this young child, what are you? And so then to kind of come back to that question about the boxes that are being checked, I think for me as a kid, it was kind of a game. You know? It was just, like, I'm this, I'm that I don't, you know, I'm all of this. So I'm just going to pick one like, whatever. And then as I got older, you know, when I understood more of what it meant, then I would check other and specify, it was just kind of this thing, you know, everybody had to fill out a box. And so I didn't carry much weight with it. And the first time it really got to me in an emotional way, was applying for colleges, when I had to fill out those boxes. And even in conversations in high school, I remember kids being like, Oh my God, you're so lucky. You could totally get into any school you want. You know, I was informed by other kids. This was not even something I'd heard from my parents. This was from kids at school, like, Oh, my God, you're so lucky, you can totally go anywhere you want because you can check any of these boxes. Being, well, and I don't even say it anymore. Like in our family it is talked about that we are part Cherokee, and I'm not sure how much weight is beared on that. So I choose to not include that in how I identify myself, because I'm not, I don't feel right saying I'm Native American, right? Because I haven't had any of those experiences. And I'm not even sure if that's just a family story versus if that's even... So anyway, my point is, I remember kids being like, Oh my god, you should totally fill out your application that your Native American, you can go to college for free. And I was like, that's just so weird to me. Even as a kid, I was like, that's really a weird thing to do.
DB Crema:Why did you think it was weird?
Holly:I thought it was weird, because that wasn't my experience in any capacity. And it just felt wrong to do something like that. To just like, say that I'm Native American, because it's a family story. How? Why? What? No. No. Please. So anyway. But to my point about the college application. So I had filled out my applications to all the schools I applied to, but this one particular University,
DB Crema:For you, where have you found that space where you called me and informed me that other was not a minority, but that I could change my application if I wanted to. You know, you can check one of these other boxes. And I told them, and I said, No, you know, this is who I am and I'm not going o change my box even if you're g ving me an opportunity to, hat's not how I roll, like. I'm ll of these things, I'm not oing to pick one. So that's hat. I'm probably not going to get into that school. But also, I was aware at that age, that I was not having experiences as other family members, as other friends of the racism they fa ed, and, you know, and all of th se challenges that they have, just because they look black and I was like, I'm not going to take away an oppor unity for someone else when I have had all of these opport nities, and part of it, you kn w, has to do with because of how I look. I was like, I'm not go na do that. fit in?
Holly:Yeah, I don't know. I'm still working on it. I'm still working on it. I'm still working on the space that I fit in. Like, it's a constant. I mean, it's not something I think about every day, but you know, as a child, I was just me. And I had my friends and this is who I was. And I always felt accepted. I could say I was accepted by those who accepted me, because those who didn't, I wasn't going to spend time with them anyway. And I was like, Oh, you're not my people. I'm not gonna hang out with you. And that feeling the need to be part of a community and like, not still trying to figure out where you fit in. I know... I feel like I've always just made my own right. People who are gonna love me for who I am. And I'm going to love those for who they are. And you know, and that's what matters, but like, it still does matter to me though. Because when I went off to college, you know, it was just it was such a different... the whole thing was a whole new world, right? Like, I'm like, What in the world? Where am I? Where are the brothers and sisters over here? Oh my god, like I really had a moment where I was like this school might need to white for me. And I never was going to join a sorority, ever. But my friends, you know, they were going to do it. And I was like, Okay, I guess I'll just do it. And so I remember going to an informational meeting where they had representatives from the different houses there. And I asked if there was an AKA because my mom is an AKA. And so I was like, I'm a legacy. And I introduced myself. And I just remember being told them like, Yeah, but it's not nationally recognized or whatever. They basically talked to their own sorority down to me, and I could tell right away, they didn't want me.
DB Crema:How did it feel? You were being told you weren't black enough. How did it feel?
Holly:Yeah. I think at the time I just remember being kind of like, oh, okay, then I just kind of walked away, because I don't think I even really registered what happened. And, of course, as an adult now, when I look back, I think about that, and I'm like, they clearly were just like, we don't want you in our sorority. You're not black enough. And I wish at that time, maybe I had asked, you know, gone a little deeper to be like, Well, what does that mean? Like, I don't understand what that means. Why would I not want to...you know, why does that matter?
DB Crema:Do you ever feel like you're passing or do you feel guilty for passing? Or do you feel guilty for not being black enough?
Holly:No. And it's not guilt. I think it's because I hate that term. And I know, it's because it's such a negative connotation. And I personally, never... it's not something I'm ashamed of. It's something I'm proud of. And it's, I'd never tell anybody that I'm white. If I'm asked, I'm the first person to say exactly what my racial mix is. And I speak up whenever I hear anything that is not okay. Right. And do my great reveal. Haha! You thought you could say that racist shit in front of me, but little do you know?! You talking to a sister! I think that's my favorite part, though. You see people's faces. When they're like, What? Oh, I didn't mean it. I didn't mean it. You thought you could say that shit in my company. But you can't. You can't. But okay, so I would change the wording on that. I don't feel guilty for not looking more black. I think I feel hurt that because I don't present enough that other people within a community that I love and feel a part of, don't recognize me as being part of that community. And that's not my family. And that's not my friends. But it's society, right? As a whole, that you see me walking down the street, no one is gonna sit there and be like, there's a black girl. Right? Um, and that gives me privilege, which makes me angry, because I should not be treated any better for how I look than, say, my cousins. And I shouldn't be treated any worse, because that's part of who I am. Right. And so... I hope the sound of my children in the background or not...
DB Crema:Oh God, yes, but t
Holly:I know, I'm sorry. They're running through the house. I don't know what's happening, right now. Okay, um, I've never called myself black. It's not out of anything other than because I feel like I shouldn't. Because I know how the world sees me. And I know that the privileges I have of, you know, because of how I look that someone's not going to look at me and identify me as that. So I feel like I can't identify myself that way. Um, even though I know I am. And so that's why I've always said I'm biracial, which is true, too, right? Um, but that is a very real thing. And because I'm so aware that the way I look protects me from a certain kind of racism that I kind of feel like, this is gonna sound weird, almost like I haven't earned it to be able to use that identifier, right. I have not and I will not ever experience, the gravity of the racism that, you know, fellow family members and friends have experienced and humans have experienced, because of what I look like. Um, but I think what's hard for me on that, too. And this is where the imposter syndrome comes in a little bit is that doesn't mean I haven't had my own experiences of racism. They're just different. And they're not violent in the way of police brutality, or micro aggressions of being followed in stores or anything like that. But I've been harmed. And I know it is because of race. You know, this is interesting. This was a story I wanted to tell you. I've been thinking about it a lot lately with the state of things in our country. This is a very vivid memory of being about probably 6, 7, or 8 years old. My parents were at a football game. And our babysitter was over. And my brother, sister and I, we were all in the living room. And I just remember, there was this magazine that I saw. It was like Newsweek or Time, something like that. But on the cover of this magazine was a hooded Klansmen. Like all it was, was like the hood with the eyes. That was the cover. And it scared the crap out of me. And I had no idea what it was. I just knew it scared me. And I asked our babysitter, what is that? She said, Oh, that's the Ku Klux Klan. And I then learned who the Ku Klux Klan were. That they hated black people, and that they, they kill black people. And I was terrified. I remember going to the front of the window of our house. I looked out to our street. And I remember just going and looking down the street, wanting my parents to get home, because I was terrified that they were going to come get us; the Klan. I envisioned... this was seriously the story that was playing out in my head while I was looking down the street wanting my parents to come home. Because I was envisioning the Klan marching down our street coming towards us, like these people and their white hoods and their things coming towards us. And I was so scared that they were gonna come get us. And then in my head, I thought, but maybe there's some people that are black, and they're in black robes and hoods, and they're gonna come, you know, where the Klan are. And they hate the white people. And they're going to kill the Klan. And then I had the moment where I realized, but then they would hate me too. So it was this feeling of like, white people hate me, because I'm black and the black people are gonna hate me because I white. And then I was like, we're screwed! In a lot of ways, I still feel that way, as a grown woman. Like, besides my little world and community that I've picked and chosen, lucky enough to have the family I have and then the friends that I have. You know, that's definitely how I see the world a lot is like, I'm gonna be hated at some level because I'm white, and I'm going to be hated on some level because I'm black. So all I can do is do me, you know?
DB Crema:Thanks for listening to United States of Race. The podcast was produced by me DB Crema. Our artwork is designed by Ali creative, and our show is hosted by buzzsprout which makes it easy to start a podcast, get it listed with all the directories and get your message out to listeners everywhere. If you love great storytelling, you can follow United States of race on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and show us some love by rating and writing a review on Apple Podcasts or Podchaser. Also, you should share this podcast with your friends and anyone who believes in the power of building connection through sharing personal stories. Or you can follow us on Instagram @ unitedstatesofrace. If you have a story to share, send us a message at unitedstatesofrace@gmail.com. Until next time!