Episode 2: This Thing Called Bias

Aware that racism existed, it wasn’t until he was in his teens that Ryan realized that it was happening all around him, whether he saw it or not. In this episode, he shares the uncomfortable moment in which he had to confront his own bias and discusses the privileges of being a white, middle-class man in America. 

This conversation raises the question, will we ever get to a place in which people can acknowledge their own privilege without taking personal offense? 
.

We’d love to hear from you – send us a 1-minute voice memo, using the app on your phone, with any reactions, questions, or stories you’d like to share, and email it to us at unitedstatesofrace@gmail.com.

Transcript

Ryan: 0:10

You know, it wasn't like I wasn't aware of racism, like it wasn't like I didn't understand that, you know, that was happening. But I think there was probably, for me a sense of oh, that doesn't happen here. Because I didn't see it. Like, oh, I could be engaging in this in ways that I don't even realize.

DB Crema: 0:31

This is United States of race, personal stories of how our earliest memories determine a lifetime of relationships. I'm your host, DB crema. On a recent trip to Europe, I was reminded how lucky just how fortunate I've been through the pandemic, in that we have a house that's large enough for us, and plenty of outdoor space to spend time. And in cities, that just hasn't been the case. I imagine how disconnected people have felt trapped inside these small spaces. And it made me think as well about the intangible distance that exists between us, each of us trapped inside the space of our own mind, feeling separated from everyone else. Much like the medieval forts I visited in Spain, generations of thoughts forming thick stone walls around us. And our own thoughts, they create this sometimes in punishable distance or division between each of us. And today's conversation has got me thinking about one of the most durable divider there is white privilege. The idea of white privilege is so difficult for some people to accept and deal with. And I think it's because it goes against some of our American identity, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Or if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere, you know, this idea of being scrappy, and that we've each achieved our success because of our grit, and perseverance and ingenuity. So for a person to accept that they've also benefited along the way from outside forces, or, as Ryan puts it, that some have more safety net than others, and that that affords a certain privilege to be able to take risks we otherwise wouldn't be able to, well, that flies in the face of our self made American man ethos. But it's BS, because both of those things can exist at the same time. And admitting and being aware, accepting that there are privileges not of your own making, that I've helped you along the way. Well, that doesn't detract from the grit and perseverance you might also have exhibited. In fact, it adds to it. It shows humility and self awareness, which are really attractive traits in some of the best leaders. So acknowledging one's privileges helps to start to address what's still not working in this country, systemic injustice. And that's the true spirit of what it is to be American, helping our fellow humans, thinking in terms of the well being of the community, creating a just society where policies and practices make it such that everyone is afforded the same access to health, education, financial capital, physical safety, the list is endless. Because in the end, aren't we all better when everyone is able to be their best? When did you become aware of race?

Ryan: 3:50

Aware of race. I think the two things that really stuck with me, and that was about race, but really starting to understand the issues of racism that like racism was happening was my first year of college at the University of Washington. I was technically a junior, but I was about 18, 19 at the time. And being on the big campus, I remember I was trying out a bunch of different things. And I ended up in a lecture. And I don't exactly remember all the details of the lecture. I believe it had something to do with race or something going on at the time. This is like 1996. But I remember a young black woman stood up, she gave us short statement about you know, it's not about you as a white person, it being your fault. It's about you understanding the advantages that you have that I don't. And that statement, that woman framing that in that point, like really started to shift the way I interacted with the world and what racism might actually be, huh, uh huh. So that that memory really sticks out with me. I think it's just kind of going like, oh, there's probably a lot of things here. I don't know. I mean, I grew up In a pretty, I would say, for the most part largely white. You know, I did not I would say I did not have much diversity of people in my life growing up. And that was like just a reflection of where we lived. Like, it just makes me think of my brother. He talked about how when he was a little kid, he remembers his like, best friend was this black kid. And he was hanging over at his house one day, I think he said he was six, he remembers he was about six years old. And he asked the kids Mom, he was like, Oh, why is so and so's hair curly? She flipped out on him. And so for a long time, you know, he always was just really confused by that, like, why did she yell at me and everything else? And he said, it was like at a later point in his life, where he was like, Yeah, you know, now I kind of get it. She's live in a pretty wide area. And she probably hears this a lot, and everything else, and it just hit the wrong moment. And she flipped out on them. I was just interested, listen to my brother, as he's like, you know, it always kind of confused him. And then as he kind of became more educated over time was like, Oh, now I think I see what's going on. So I think about how that woman made that statement. And I think what that changed for me, it was a realization that, oh, there is racism potentially going on here. And in my life that I don't know about. It was a thing, the way she put it where it wasn't, she made it very clear, it wasn't like to necessarily blame you, or put onus on you, but it was just to say, to wake you up to say, hey, you know, there is a difference here. So I wouldn't say it was an easy thing to hear. But it was a Yeah, it was a positive and it made sense. And later that year, would have been early 1997, I went on a trip to Chicago. And, you know, I would never say I would think of myself as racist or anything else. And I remember I got on the El train in Chicago. And I was listening to my headphones. And I'm like, not paying attention. I'm trying to go somewhere. And all of a sudden, I looked up, and I realized I was the only white person on this train that everybody else was black. And I felt very uncomfortable, and that I was out there. And I was like uncomfortable with the fact that it was uncomfortable. Because I was like, why am I uncomfortable? You know, and partially realized that I was at that point, also realized I was heading to southern Chicago, which at the time, people had warned me to stay away from it. And I inside I'd really didn't know anything about it. So I did get off the train and go back. But again, that moment, I think has always stuck with me to sit there and realize like, oh, wow, I do have this thing called bias. I do have this thing. Like, I did not feel comfortable. And I had nothing to do with anybody else. There was nothing anybody else was doing. That was just me. And whatever my experiences were that left with me. So for me, those are the earliest things were things were started to like, click for me to understand, like, hey, there's, you know, there's more going on here than I've ever realized.

DB Crema: 8:01

Right, right. I mean, it's interesting, the pointing out the the experience on the L on the way to Southside of Chicago, you had to become race aware, all of a sudden, because you were the minority.

Ryan: 8:14

I could be engaging in this in ways that I don't even realize. So I think it made me just more aware and more open. You know, and I think maybe over time, that led to more understanding about time to say, Oh, yes, I have privilege and trying to understand what that privilege is, and how does that affect other people? And how does that affect me?

DB Crema: 8:34

Right? Even the concept of race seemed to exist on the periphery of your life.

Ryan: 8:41

Yeah, like, in talking with my girlfriend about some of our experiences, my girlfriend is Asian, Filipino American, talking about how we went to Asia recently, or the times we go to Asia and why she's so interested in Asia, because when she's there, even if it's not the Philippines, and even though you know, she doesn't speak Tagalog, like totally, like a native, she doesn't feel like she's standing out. And you know, and I keep reflecting back on that, because I think about times that I've traveled and been in other places, and I'm like, Oh, I get that. And it's different, when that's, you know, if that's your experience the whole time, to not have that identity to not have that or to have only you know, for her grown in SoCal to only have pockets of it, you know, when she was with her Filipino community or her family, or at certain times. And so I think that has also like, kind of have you see having those moments of that and then reflecting like, What could that be over a lifetime?

DB Crema: 9:34

Mm hmm. Reaching back to that moment in your first year on on the like, you know, big campus? Hearing that from that woman in your class, do you recall then how it changed your, you know, your perspective, your view of what was going on around you?

Ryan: 9:51

Yeah, I mean, part of this is a long time ago. So I'm trying to remember some of this is maybe more reflection as being older. But I mean, I think one way because, you know, it wasn't like I wasn't aware of racism. It wasn't like, you know, that's not, you know, I didn't understand that, you know, that was happening. But I think there was probably, for me a sense of oh, that doesn't happen here, because I didn't see it. You know? So I went, Yeah, it was an easy thing to hear. But it was a Yeah, it was a positive. And it made sense.

DB Crema: 10:25

Well, that it was positive says a lot, because I think people have gotten to the point where the natural reaction is to almost close one's ears to that, because to accept that statement, as fact, and as the reality it requires of one to to reflect on their own privileges. Right.

Ryan: 10:47

Yeah. And I think that it was a thing, the way she put it where it wasn't, she made it very clear, it wasn't like to necessarily blame you, or put onus on you, but it was just to say, to wake you up to say, hey, you know, there is a difference here. And, and I think that's what it is, because sometimes you hear people's responses to these topics. And they're defensive, because like you said, it's getting at something there that they're not comfortable facing, or they don't want to assume, because I think a lot of people are doing, potentially saying racist things. And they don't even realize it. And I include myself, like, you know, over time, I look back at things I may have said in the past and go oh, yeah, that may not have been now I have a new context. I think the one that's actually stuck with me recently is this whole frame about, I don't see color. And I think at a time in my life, I would have said that. And now, you know, I think especially in this last year, I've come to understand that. No, not seeing somebody for the color of their skin is not to recognize their background and their heritage and the experience that they have. And so I I get where people come from. And I think that's, again, we need to talk more about like, well, what does that mean, when you're saying that? And what what are we trying to say? Like, you know, what you're trying to say is you try to act to treat everybody equal? That is your purpose, but you may not always succeed. And if you don't think you're doing it, then that's a problem.

DB Crema: 12:14

Right, right. I know for a fact, I have said that. I have I have learned a lot over the years. And that's I guess the whole point of, you know, actively working towards anti racism is that it is no What do they say? It's not the destination. It's the journey. It's the work, it's the experience and learning each and every day.

Ryan: 12:36

So yeah, I think sometimes the way that we view stuff is based on an individual basis, well, so and so said that thing, but I think they were overreacting, or this person said, Oh, they were being racist toward me. But I think it's due to this, this and this. And I understand that. I think there are times like I've certainly had some people make claims to me in the past that based on what I understood the situation, I was like, I think there's another way to look at it. But at the same token, I was like, I'm not gonna press it, you have experiences here, that you know, and I wasn't in the room all those times, like too often in America, and this is everybody is we use this may be getting too nerdy here. But qualitative stories are meant to backup quantitative data. Like that is the point of those stories are individual stories, or to backup to the real experiences that are going on, like what's really happening. And too often we take that as Oh, that's our stasis. And no, it should be an example of something. You know, like, because you'll hear statements where people were like, well, I've had this experience or that thing, or the classic line, I have a black friend, you know, and it's like, well, you could have a black friend and you could still be racist. Like, you know, I think that's the other thing I've come to realize all these people can make these claims why they can't be blamed to be racist. And I'm like, no, no, look at misogyny look at how many dads probably love their daughters and still expected them to be cute little housewives, like, just because you have relationships doesn't mean you aren't, you don't have tendencies. So

DB Crema: 14:04

That doesn't mean that you weren't internalized and taught into racism and have been so socialized over the years, like every single one of us that I have had even other people of color tell me that my experiences aren't what they are. And that's, you know, what I try to get back to them is like, it's just because we are a minority and we're, you know, people of color and we've experienced we've all been on the receiving end of racism doesn't mean that we can't perpetuate the very things that we've been socialized and taught into over the years. I mean, I don't know about you, but I feel like as a child of the 80s and 90s, I was very much taught to not question the social structure within which we lived. It was just it it was what it was and the idea of considering whether it was possible or necessary to change A system that wasn't designed to benefit everyone equally, it never crossed my mind to question it to, you know that something's didn't sit right with me, but it never crossed my mind to really push the issue and try to question and say, Well, why is it like that? And why can't wait, what what can we do to change it? Why can't we change it?

Ryan: 15:21

Yeah. Interesting. Do you think that's, I mean, was the are you saying that both culturally and in your family or more culturally?

DB Crema: 15:38

um, you know, it's hard to tease apart, but I would say probably some family culture aspect of that, I'm sure, I'm know that my mom would not appreciate me talking about my family. But anyway, I'm sure there was some aspect of you know, just family culture, especially as being you know, for myself being first generation American, my parents were foreigners, they had very different views. And they have very different views for each other being from different countries. But also, I think, just, you know, full on at socialization, as well as I think there was definitely an aspect of that, that was a very gender gendered socialization, right, as a woman growing up as a girl. So, you know, there's that intersectionality between race and gender. So, you know,

Ryan: 16:24

Yeah, I think that's interesting. I hadn't thought about, you know, I think about a lot of the cultural impact we have, you know, I was sharing a story because I remember, there's some famous ABC or NBC News report, I think it was from the middle of the 2000s. And, you know, as a young black girl, she was like, six, and they were like, oh, pick a doll. And she picked the white girl. And they were like, why? Just like, the black girl is ugly. Like, she was six. And she was already feeling like, I was just like, it's horrified. And I think to myself, like, did I, as a white male have that? Or did I always have a feeling of oh, well, I can change things. often think about that. That's kind of like, I'm wondering how much you know, how does that change based on our identity versus that?

DB Crema: 17:08

Hmm, yeah. Do you feel like you have had experience disadvantages because of your race?

Ryan: 17:18

Honestly, no. I mean, I can't have anything come to mind. But I would also say part of that, I think that is my viewpoint, where my life's pretty good. I have a lot of options. Like, it's not, you know, if on occasion, I'm getting disadvantaged because of my skin, I'm like, I'm kind of okay with that. Because things are good for me. Like, you know, if I honestly sit there objectively, it's not like, I don't have challenges, and I don't have things like that. But like, I know, for a fact that a lot of doors and a lot of things just open up for me, not like huge, but at least like you know, they tend to bias more in my, in my favor in a lot of ways. I mean, I think the only thing I've ever felt any disadvantage or judgment has been more about being male than then specifically then I think being a white male. But no, I wouldn't. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing right here, a lot of people complain. And again, they pick the one thing I didn't get into this school, I didn't do this. I didn't do that. And I'm like, Yeah, but you're probably getting a 10th of the rejections that other people are, like, I'm like, it's just, you know, I think the only caveat I would get there, I think there is another difference is, you know, I'm educated in middle class very clearly in the middle class. And, you know, I do think about what it is to be white and poor. Because I think that's an area that that has some similarities, like, how do we treat the people who are poor, who are obviously poor. And I think that that also happens, and that I feel, again, probably happens across the racial lines, you know, more so to others. But to sit there and say that we don't discriminate against white poor, we don't judge against white poor, I think is also like, you know, sometimes that we miss in these conversations, when we talk about privilege and everything else, like, part of my privilege is my parents were educated, they have college educations. I have a family that's multiple generations of family that's been financially stable. Like I have all these advantages that I think people don't always recognize that all the safety nets, I have the mere fact I know that if I lose all my money, I've got family and friends that I can rely on and there's no questions and I'm not I'm not going to be out on the loan, like, you know, the safety net, right. It's just the big thing.

DB Crema: 19:42

Yeah. Are we privileging the topic of race and race based discrimination over other types of discrimination over other types of ways in which our system, you know, is based?

Ryan: 19:56

Yeah, you know, and I think I even saw something today where somebody was saying Do you get the feeling your white friends are more concerned about the plight of the blacks than they are your Asian and Latino and other friends of color? I think there were saying some, like they're more likely to jump on that. And my view in it, and I look if people bring that up is I'm like, I don't think that's a debate to have to say over over prioritizing. I think it's openness discussion to say, hey, there's other aspects related to this, that we should also be talking about. And sure. But at the same token, like if we think about our modern world, like, there, I mean, if we wanted to sit here and let's all the things I think a raga the world, we could be here for a while. And you everybody's only got so much energy, and the culture is only got so much energy and the shifts in the rides, and it goes where it is. And there's clearly a problem. And it has surfaced now, do are we gonna fix it? Totally. No, it's, as you said, a journey. So maybe it's more about one race than the other right now. But guess what, we will probably shift and talk about others. And it doesn't mean there's not a space for people to talk about people of other identities. I mean, if we want to talk about it, the issue of rights for women has been going on for well over 100 plus years, like you know, it didn't like you have the right to vote and and like we're still talking about because it's still in balanced and they're still in that's still an issue that we need to talk about. So

DB Crema: 21:20

yeah, yeah. What... What do you think America would be like, if we no longer taught children about race?

Ryan: 21:33

I've got I mean, I guess I've got a thought.

DB Crema: 21:37

Okay.

Ryan: 21:38

What I kind of realized later on in life is that my grandmother, my father's side, she was bigoted. She was racist. She was against, she's racist aginst...um.. She was bigoted against Jews. She was definitely racist against blacks. And my father rebelled against that. But one of the things that I think about is when I grew up, not none of that he never spread any of that to me. Right. So like, to me coming out of that, like, where did this come from? And so when you talk about America, where we teach race, I'm like, you know, if we can make an effort to focus on what are those things that are peppered perpetuating that changing those things in our media, and our politics in the way that we talk about and in the way parents talk about it in a way where you're not perpetuating those things, even even the minor things, maybe in that way you could reduce over time, I think the mere fact that these things are coming up, and it's painful in a lot of ways, and it's not always great. And they're not comfortable topics, like I mean, I get that I get that it's not always comfortable to bring them up. But I, to me, it gives me hope. And so if those issues become less and less serious issues, that means we're moving in the right direction.

DB Crema: 23:00

Thanks for listening to United States of race. This podcast was produced by me, DB crema. We'd love to hear from you. Send us a one minute Voice Memo with any reactions, questions or stories you'd like to share. You can use the app on your phone to record the voice memo and email it to United Statesofrace@gmail.com. It might even be included in an upcoming episode. And be sure to hit follow or subscribe on whichever podcast platform you're listening. That way you won't miss a single moment. Until next time